"Transcodeless" 3:2 pulldown removal workflow for Premiere by LordTangent

[lordtangent]

This is workflow uses AVISynth to help Premiere do what it should do natively but doesn't. That is... remove pulldown and minimize color damage from round-tripping between YCbCr and RGB incorrectly.

Part of the work flow involves creating a very high quality 4:4:4 full-range SD res "proxys" which are good enough to use for color grading and even finishing in SD res. While being high quality 4:4:4 RGB the proxy is no larger than a DV codec SD res video and is very responsive for real-time editing. Because only small "proxy" files are ever transcoded to disk, disk space usage is kept to a minimum. For the final render, the full-resolution video is served directly from the original m2t files on-the-fly using AVISynth.

This workflow assumes you have the following tools properly installed on your system.
Tools:

1. HDVsplit (Free)
2. HV20Pulldown.exe (And associated tools) (Free)
(a) LordTangents Uber Templates. (Free)
(b) LordTangents Output Templates. (Free)
3. Video Editor's Toolkit plug-ins (Free)
4. Morgan JPEG2000 codec ($30) ... You can also use Lagarith (Free) or HUFFYUV (Free) if you don't feel like spending 30 bucks... they wont save as much space as though Morgan JPEG2000 (Which provides visually lossless 4:4:4 RGB at a fraction the file size)

First, I want to thank everyone who's done the work that I am essentially only building on top of. I'm definitely "standing on the shoulders of giants" here. Most of this work is just an extension of Farnsworth and SSzudziks work. My work flow simply leverages/expands on certain parts of the work flow they've already created.

The primary goal of this work flow is to improve interactivity when editing. (And allow for editing on older machines) The secondary goal is to avoid transcoding to massive intermediate files, saving disk space. The tertiary goal is to maintain control over full-range YCbCr to RGB conversion and avoid unnecessary round tripping though color models.

Here is a conceptual overview of the work flow: You use an AVISynth script to load the HDV video into Premiere. AVISynth processes the video on the fly (Up stream of Premiere) to remove 3:2 pulldown (and do anything else you want it to). For each HDV file, you also make proxy file and an identically named AVI synth script. By changing the path to the media (which in this case are AVISynth scipts) Premiere sees either the on-the-fly processed HDV video or the proxy. The proxy video is small and the script so light weight it plays back very quickly even though it's being frame served. For final rendering you switch the path to point to the HD res material and let Premiere crunch away while you sleep.

More specific details:

1. Capture HDV to M2T files with HDVSplit

2. Use Fransworth/Sudzik pipeline to remove 3:2 pulldown, but instead of making full-resolution intermediate files, make PROXIES. ( Use LordTangents special "R2" or "R3" output template for this, or make you own ) Keep the AVS script files (i.e.UN-check " Remove DGIndex temporary files when job is done." in HV20Pulldown.exe ) Morgan MJPEG2000 is recommended as the proxy codec due to its quality and size... even though they are proxies, you still want them to be high enough quality to get a good idea of what you are doing. (MJPEG2000 is not required, but IMHO it worth the $30 it costs.)

3. Move .avs script generated by HV20Pulldown.exe into a directory called "MEDIA" (or whatever you want to call it) Keep all other temp files. (You will be needing them later.)

4. Make a "wrapper" AVS script for the proxy avi movie that simply loads the movie directly from the processed proxy movie. The names of the HDV and Proxy loading scripts should be identical. Group all the Proxy AVS scripts in one directory and all the HDV processing scripts in another.

5. Using Video Editor's Toolkit plug-in, load all your proxy scripts into Premiere as media.

6. Edit your video.

7. When you are done editing and color grading on the proxies, save you Premiere project and quit Premiere.

8. Edit the path to the AVS scripts so that the path to the HDV processing AVS scripts is the same as the path to your Proxy media was.

9. re-start Premiere. All your media will have been replaced with the HDV media. Start the render of you final movie and go kill some time while Premiere crunches away.

Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here are a couple of screen grabs of the scripts in action:

Changing the path as a "switch":
http://hv20.info/yopu/AVS_Proxy_Load.png

Premiere loading an AVS file directly.
http://hv20.info/yopu/VideoEditorsToolkit.png

There you have it. "transcodeless" workflow! Keep in mind, if you ahve a very weak machine you can also combine this with the fast JPEG2000 decoding I mention in this thread to speed things up even more.


P.S. I hope to be release a simple batch script for automatically generating the proxy "wrapper loader" AVISynth scripts in the near future. I will update this thread when it is ready.

[Frank]

This is awesome. I already have a workflow that does the job, but I have a feeling this will save me time (and possibly space). Thanks!

[Farnsworth]

Lordtangent, once again you are the man. (Or woman, as the case may be.)

But I have a question for you. Something I have long tried to do but never been able to accomplish.

I edit in Premiere but I do my color correcting in AE. Is there any way to load an avisynth script into AE, so that I can work it into this transcodeless workflow?

[lordtangent]

VFAPI can wrap your AVSynth script in a "fake AVI" wrapper. The VFAPI "codec" then acts as a middle-man (frame server really) that makes whatever program is loading the fake avi think it's loading a real AVI and serves the frames from AVISynth.

Some programs fall for it, others don't. It's hit or miss. It was working pretty well for me under Win2k. Under XP64 it doesn't seem to work with ANY program. (Something must have changed at teh OS level) So, YMMV.

Search the page for VFAPI. It ships with the "codec" and a little tool called VFAPI Converter that makes the "fake avis"
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/software.htm

I had this whole work flow figured out and tested before I even got my HV20. And I would be using this system myself now if it wasn't for XP64 breaking everything. The little "Fake AVIs" were great because almost ANY program that read AVIs could open them.

here are some more tips:
http://www.animemusicvideos.org/guid...mozTocId201615

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I've linked to this thread from my pulldown tutorial blog post (which is pretty popular these days at around 100-150 reads per day), so hopefully Premiere users will find it easier.

[lordtangent]

Cool. Thanks!

Yeah, this work flow will be handy for people with slower machines or not a ton of disk space.... or just perfectionists like me who just have resistance to the idea of transcoding the video any more generations than absolutely required.

[vincehax]

First off, I'd like to thank you for this, it's exactly what I've been looking for as a premiere editor. However, I have a few questions because I am a noob when it comes to some of the more complicated steps.

What exactly do I have to do to get the proxy files you are talking about? How would I go about putting your R2 or R3 output templates into action? I guess basically what I need is a more broken down, step by step process of numbers 2-4, and 7.

Thanks in advance.

[RHKFilm]

Great stuff Lordtangent. Anyone gonna take a stab at this workflow with Vegas 8.0? Anyone know of any program like the video editor's toolkit for Vegas?

[lordtangent]

First off, I'd like to thank you for this, it's exactly what I've been looking for as a premiere editor. However, I have a few questions because I am a noob when it comes to some of the more complicated steps.

What exactly do I have to do to get the proxy files you are talking about? How would I go about putting your R2 or R3 output templates into action? I guess basically what I need is a more broken down, step by step process of numbers 2-4, and 7.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry , that's about as granular a description as I have time for writing right now. Everything about this except for making the "proxy loaders" is documented elsewhere. Check out hte screen grabs for some hints on that. They really are worth a thousand words. Using the R2 and R3 templates is regular HV20Pulldown.exe stuff.

Unfortunately, right now this system does require getting your hands a little dirty with AVISynth scripting (i.e. step number 3 in the long description) It's easy stuff as far as scripting goes, but you gotta get in there anyway. Once I have my personal workflow more automated I can share the fruits of that. But right now it's still an semi-manual process, even for me. ( for everything I've done to date, I've made the proxy loading scripts by hand. When I have a higher volume project I'll definitly automate things though, since writing a script would be alot faster than making 100 proxy loaders manually.)

I've put this idea on the table for SSzudzik to add into "HV20Pulldown.exe" but he's a busy guy with his own life also. Maybe his next tool will be flexible enough that I can use it to automate the extra couple of steps myself. If that's the case I will gladly share the templates for that. We just have to wait and see what his next tools capabilities will be. If I end up automating it myself it will probably end up being just a batch script or Perl script that makes the proxy AVISynth loaders and "Media" and "Proxy_Media" directories. I'm comfortable enough using scripts myself I'd never bother with a gui for this type of thing, especially if I was the one that had to program it. (GUIs are a little out of my league right now. And I have other things I'd rather do than learn to program well enough to make them)

If you need help setting up HV20Pulldown.exe, Eugenia has written an excellent guide.

[vincehax]

Sorry , that's about as granular a description as I have time for writing right now. Everything about this except for making the "proxy loaders" is documented elsewhere. Check out hte screen grabs for some hints on that. They really are worth a thousand words. Using the R2 and R3 templates is regular HV20Pulldown.exe stuff.

Unfortunately, right now this system does require getting your hands a little dirty with AVISynth scripting (i.e. step number 3 in the long description) It's easy stuff as far as scripting goes, but you gotta get in there anyway. Once I have my personal workflow more automated I can share the fruits of that. But right now it's still an semi-manual process, even for me. ( for everything I've done to date, I've made the proxy loading scripts by hand. When I have a higher volume project I'll definitly automate things though, since writing a script would be alot faster than making 100 proxy loaders manually.)

I've put this idea on the table for SSzudzik to add into "HV20Pulldown.exe" but he's a busy guy with his own life also. Maybe his next tool will be flexible enough that I can use it to automate the extra couple of steps myself. If that's the case I will gladly share the templates for that. We just have to wait and see what his next tools capabilities will be. If I end up automating it myself it will probably end up being just a batch script or Perl script that makes the proxy AVISynth loaders and "Media" and "Proxy_Media" directories. I'm comfortable enough using scripts myself I'd never bother with a gui for this type of thing, especially if I was the one that had to program it. (GUIs are a little out of my league right now. And I have other things I'd rather do than learn to program well enough to make them)

If you need help setting up HV20Pulldown.exe, Eugenia has written an excellent guide.

Well, thanks for you help thus far. I have gotten fairly comfortable with using HV20Pulldown.exe, especially after reading and following Eugenia's guide. It's just that the idea of setting it up to make proxy files is overwhelming to me.

Maybe if I ask nicely Eugenia will make another guide? PLEAAAAASSEEEEE? =)

But then again, this method may not be necessary if you choose to edit and then remove pulldown. What do you think about this concept Lordtangent?

[lordtangent]

I would not reccomend it unless you intend to be very careful about the in and out points of every cut you do. It's possible to get film frames that only exist for one video field and no matter how good the 3:2 pulldown removal system is the best it can do with a frame like that is intopolate one of the fields into a frame. But which field?

It's best to avoid that particular workflow.

[ILoveCanon]

Hello and thanks for the work you've put into this!

I was on the verge of shelling out the $500(! almost the price of the HV20!) for Cineform's Aspect HD as I will be using Adobe Premiere CS3 for my video editing.

Is your method a workable alternative to Aspect HD for AP CS3? If it is, then you would be saving me $500 that I can place towards accessories such as a microphone and wide angle lens.

[lordtangent]

Sure, it's workable. In some ways its actually better since there is zero transcoding until you hit "render" on your edit. It's worse in some ways also... mainly in that it's too technical for some people and it doesn't provide the "realtime" features of AspectHD.

It depends on your needs, how technical and impacient you are, and hopw much money you want to spend. It is definitly on par with Cineform "Neo" speedwise, if you are technical enough to live with it. AspectHD is a step up from that: a full solution for Premiere that brings more to the party than just 3:2 pulldown removal and a fancy codec. It will enhance all your HD editing experience in Premiere. For longer projects and pro work, the speed improvement (in terms of the snappiness of the interactive edit sessions) might be worth it to you.

BUT... Aspect is expensive, and if your final output is going to be MPEG4 or MPEG2, you are going to have to render everything out at some point anyway. The "online/offline" workflow of the "transcodeless" workflow might be a good enough for you.

I'm cheap. I'd rather spend the money on a tripod, mic, etc also. This is just a hobby for me, so the slight speed hit is not that big a deal for me personally. The technical stuff doesn't put me off one bit either. (I designed the workflow myself, after all.) YMMV.

[AlphaWolf]

Lordtangent, once again you are the man. (Or woman, as the case may be.)

But I have a question for you. Something I have long tried to do but never been able to accomplish.

I edit in Premiere but I do my color correcting in AE. Is there any way to load an avisynth script into AE, so that I can work it into this transcodeless workflow?

Farnsworth, have you had any luck getting AE into the workflow? At present, I've been only following these threads. I just got the HV20 and haven't tried capturing anything yet. But I plan to use AE for CC as well.

[lordtangent]

To use the same "transcodeless" aproach, hou would have to find an AVISynth loader plug-in similar to the one for Premiere. The Premiere plug-in is open source. If you or someone you know has the chops it could probably be ported to AE pretty easily.

[Farnsworth]

Nope, I have not successfully gotten AE to open a "fake" AVI. Still trying different things, but so far I've been disappointed. It MUST be possible!

[Brent Long]

8. Edit the path to the AVS scripts so that the path to the HDV processing AVS scripts is the same as the path to your Proxy media was.

In what--the Premiere project file's text?

[lordtangent]

In the File System. You are tricking Premiere by "moving" the files. BUt since the names are identical it doesn't know the difference.

[Brent Long]

In the File System. You are tricking Premiere by "moving" the files. BUt since the names are identical it doesn't know the difference.

Heh, that makes sense. Why didn't I think of that?

I tried mucking about the Premiere project file's text, changing the filepaths to the HD AVS files. I just wound up getting some errors in Premiere.

Anyway, thanks a lot.

[lordtangent]

Well, it's a little non-obvious. This trick is actually decended from a similar hack we used on a project I worked on YEARS ago. But in that case (since we were on Unix) we did the trick by using symbolic links and changing the path there. So... this type of thinking was already in my head in terms of "acceptable" tricks to try and get away with. It's too bad Windows doesn't support proper symbolic links though. Changing the path WILL do the trick on Windows and the AVISynth scripts basically act like little symbolic links anyway.

[TheKidzz]

How would this workflow change if it didnt start with 24p video? That is, instead of hv20pulldown in step 2, what would I use?

[lordtangent]

Well, if your NLE supports HDV and you don't need the inverse telecine, you really don't need this trick. You can just do everything right in your NLE.

[Ian-T]

@ TheKidzz...that's if your PC has enough Umph to edit M2t files. If not then you will have to use intermediate files.

[TheKidzz]

Exactly....need more Umph. lol Umph coming in the next 6-8 months but in the meantime I would like to figure out the best way to create proxies. Lorttangent's method is only for 24p shot video. How do I do the same without the HV20pulldown.exe setp. That is, how do I run the AviSynth scripts without HV20pulldown.exe?


Lordtangent.....are you saying that I might be able to use my NLE to create the proxies themselves? I am using Premiere Pro CS3.



Thanks

[lordtangent]

OK. I get it now. You want o make proxies for your 60i stuff.

You could use HV20pulldown.exe with the correct templates. The templates that Steve ships with it are meant to remove 3:2 pulldown. But they don't have to do that. You could use them for just scaling the video down to make yout proxies.